Najib’s GE13 Victory Speech Inspired by Obama’s 2012

(Bawang, 31 April 2013, Kuala Lumpur) – As the Chairman of Barisan Nasional, incumbent Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak delivered his victory speech yesterday at UMNO Headquarters, PWTC, Kuala Lumpur, after the final election results of the 13^th General Election 2013 were made official by the Election Commission. RTM1, RTM2 and TV3 carried his speech live.

Observers have noted that Najib’s speech sounded very similar to Obama’s November 2012 victory speech. Perhaps Najib was trying to INSPIRE the people of Malaysia, like Obama did to the Americans. So, we have decided to reproduce the texts of both speeches together for the readers’ comparisons. You are free to form your own judgments on how well Najib did compared with Obama.

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[Obama: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.]

NAJIB: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Obama: Tonight, more than 200 years after a former colony won the right to determine its own destiny, the task of perfecting our union moves forward.]

NAJIB: Tonight, more than 55 years after a former colony won the right to determine its own destiny, the task of perfecting the Malay Agenda moves forward.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: It moves forward because of you. It moves forward because you reaffirmed the spirit that has triumphed over war and depression, the spirit that has lifted this country from the depths of despair to the great heights of hope, the belief that while each of us will pursue our own individual dreams, we are an American family and we rise or fall together as one nation and as one people.]

NAJIB: It moves forward because of you, the Bumiputras. It moves forward because you, the Bumiputras, reaffirmed the spirit that has triumphed over Western and Chinese colonialism, the spirit that has saved this country from the claws of Anwar Ibrahim and DAP, the belief that while each of us will fight for our own individual government projects and contracts, we are a Bumiputra family and we rise or fall together as 1Malaysia of Bumiputras lording over the Pendatangs, and as one ummah of Muslims repelling the godless infidels.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: Tonight, in this election, you, the American people, reminded us that while our road has been hard, while our journey has been long, we have picked ourselves up, we have fought our way back, and we know in our hearts that for the United States of America the best is yet to come.]

NAJIB: Tonight, in this election, you, the Bumiputras, reminded the Pendatangs that while UMNO and BN might have lost the popular support, while the popular votes are clearly siding with Pakatan Rakyat, we have won the Phantom Votes, we have fought our way back, and we know in our hearts that for UMNO, the best is yet to come.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: I want to thank every American who participated in this election...]

NAJIB: I want to thank every Bumiputra who voted for BN in this election...

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: ... whether you voted for the very first time or waited in line for a very long time.]

NAJIB: ... whether you voted for UMNO or the other useless parties of BN who totally depended on UMNO to win their seats.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: By the way, we have to fix that.]

NAJIB: By the way, whenever I mention Bumiputras in this speech, I don’t include the Natives of Sabah and Sarawak. I don't think I even have to remind you of that.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: ... whether you held an Obama sign or a Romney sign, you made your voice heard and you made a difference.]

NAJIB: ... whether you beat up a person holding a PKR sign or a DAP sign, you made your voice heard and you made a difference.

[Obama: I just spoke with Governor Romney and I congratulated him and Paul Ryan on a hard-fought campaign.]

NAJIB: I just spoke with Anwar Ibrahim and I asked him and Lim Guan Eng to go fuck themselves (and each other).

(APPLAUSE)

NAJIB: He said to me that “Well, at least we won’t have to screw or be screwed by Rosmah every single day.” I said, "Are you sure? The whole Malaysia is, kawan."

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: We may have battled fiercely, but it's only because we love this country deeply and we care so strongly about its future.]

NAJIB: We may have battled fiercely, but it's only because we love government projects and contracts deeply, and we care so strongly about the future of UMNO’s “business opportunities”.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: From George to Lenore to their son Mitt, the Romney family has chosen to give back to America through public service and that is the legacy that we honor and applaud tonight.]

NAJIB: From Anwar Ibrahim to Wan Azizah to their daughter Nurul Izzah, the Anwar family has chosen to betray the Malay Agenda through working with DAP, and those are the traitors we defeat and humiliate tonight.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: In the weeks ahead, I also look forward to sitting down with Governor Romney to talk about where we can work together to move this country forward.]

NAJIB: In the weeks ahead, I also look forward to locking up Anwar Ibrahim, Lim Guan Eng and Karpal Singh, and to talk to my good friend and ally Hadi Awang, our not-so-covert mole in Pakatan Rakyat, about where we can work together to move the Malay Agenda forward.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: I want to thank my friend and partner of the last four years, America's happy warrior, the best vice president anybody could ever hope for, Joe Biden.]

NAJIB: I want to thank my friends and “Bad-Cops” of the last four years. First, the person who has made extreme and racist statements in public to appease our UMNO supporters so that I didn’t have to, the best Deputy Prime Minister anybody could ever hope for, Malay-First-Malaysian-Last Muhyiddin Yassin.

And Nazri Aziz, who kept talking like a complete idiot, to say some vague and useless things which doesn't cost me anything, that would make the non-Malays happy one day and then say other things to upset them the next day.

And not forgetting Idris Jala, the Minister of Bad News, who delivered all the gloomy news about cutting subsidies and the country going bankrupt so that none of the BN politicians had to. He was the only Minister telling the truth to the country so that none of us in the Cabinet had to.

Last but not least, also thanks to Zahid Hamidi and my useless cousin Hishamuddin Hussein for keeping their big fucking mouths shut for the past couple of years so that the non-Malays were not so annoyed like they were before 2008.

Without their cooperation to do all the dirty works for me, I would not have been able to look shake off my blood-thirsty, "defend Putrajaya with blood", UMNO-putra image to morph into a gentle reformist, the only Good Guy in government and enjoy the high popularity rating, to fool the stupid Indians and some Chinese to come back to BN.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: And I wouldn't be the man I am today without the woman who agreed to marry me 20 years ago.]

NAJIB: And I would have been the Prime Minister at least 10 years earlier without the woman who seduced me into marrying her 25 years ago.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: Let me say this publicly: Michelle, I have never loved you more. I have never been prouder to watch the rest of America fall in love with you, too, as our nation's first lady.]

NAJIB: Let me say this publicly: Rosmah, I have never hated you more. I have never been more worried to watch the rest of Malaysia loathed and hated you, too, as our nation's self-proclaimed First Lady. I nearly lost the election because of your fat ass.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: Sasha and Malia, before our very eyes you're growing up to become two strong, smart beautiful young women, just like your mom.]

NAJIB: My children, before our very eyes you're growing up to become experienced money-sucking vacuum cleaners, just like your mom.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: And I'm so proud of you guys. But I will say that for now one dog's probably enough.]

NAJIB: And I'm so proud of you guys. But I will say that for now one USD24 million ring and 20 luxury handbags are probably enough.

(LAUGHTER)

[Obama: To the best campaign team and volunteers in the history of politics...]

NAJIB: To the best Election Commission-NRD team and  Phantom-Voters-Manufacturers in the history of politics!!!

 (APPLAUSE)

[Obama: The best. The best ever. Some of you were new this time around, and some of you have been at my side since the very beginning.]

NAJIB: The best. The best ever. Some of you were new this time around, and some of you have been at UMNO’s side since the very beginning of Mahathir’s time.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: But all of you are family. No matter what you do or where you go from here, you will carry the memory of the history we made together and you will have the life-long appreciation of a grateful president. Thank you for believing all the way, through every hill, through every valley.]

NAJIB: But all of you are family. No matter what you do or where you go from here, you will be haunted by the memories of the treasonous acts we did together and you will have the life-long appreciation of a grateful UMNO. Thank you for helping us to cheat all the way, through every IC, through every MyKad, through every ballot paper.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: You lifted me up the whole way and I will always be grateful for everything that you've done and all the incredible work that you put in.]

NAJIB: You saved UMNO’s ass the whole way and I will always be grateful for every fake MyKad that you've issued and all the incredible Phantom Voters that you put on the Voters’ Register. But you lot should also be grateful that UMNO does not lose power because otherwise, your ass would also be shot by Pakatan Rakyat. We are in this together.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: I know that political campaigns can sometimes seem small, even silly. And that provides plenty of fodder for the cynics that tell us that politics is nothing more than a contest of egos or the domain of special interests. But if you ever get the chance to talk to folks who turned out at our rallies and crowded along a rope line in a high school gym, or saw folks working late in a campaign office in some tiny county far away from home, you'll discover something else.]

NAJIB: I know that political campaigns always cost a lot of money, even more than RM40 million per seat. And that provides plenty of fodder for the opposition that tell us that Malaysian elections are nothing more than a farce and a fraud, or the domain of money politics and vote buying. But if you ever get the chance to talk to folks who turned out at our ceramahs and election operation rooms to ask for money in exchange for their votes, or saw kampung folks looking so happy to receive some cheap freebies, you'll discover something else.

[Obama: You'll hear the determination in the voice of a young field organizer who's working his way through college and wants to make sure every child has that same opportunity.]

NAJIB: You'll hear the naivety of the stupid voters who don’t care about democracy and don’t even bother to ask why our country has gone down the drain, and wants to make sure every child of his has that same opportunity to live the third-world-lifestyle forever.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: You'll hear the pride in the voice of a volunteer who's going door to door because her brother was finally hired when the local auto plant added another shift.]

NAJIB: You'll hear the gratitude in the voice of a poor farmer who's supporting all the polluting and dangerous industries because his children were finally hired as janitors of Lynas, even though in the end their wages for 10 lifetimes would not even be enough to cure their father’s cancer.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: You'll hear the deep patriotism in the voice of a military spouse whose working the phones late at night to make sure that no one who fights for this country ever has to fight for a job or a roof over their head when they come home.]

NAJIB: You'll hear the deep patriotism in the voice of some naive non-Bumi military personnel who are stupidly proud of being a second class Malaysian citizen who can’t wait to die for his country to make sure, that every non-Bumi who fights for this country will still forever remain a Pendatang and second class citizen when they come home. 

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: That's why we do this. That's what politics can be. That's why elections matter. It's not small, it's big. It's important. Democracy in a nation of 300 million can be noisy and messy and complicated. We have our own opinions. Each of us has deeply held beliefs. And when we go through tough times, when we make big decisions as a country, it necessarily stirs passions, stirs up controversy.]

NAJIB: That's why we do this. That's what Malay Agenda can be. That's why elections must be bought or stolen. It's not cheap, it's expensive. It's a pain in the ass. Democracy in a nation of 28 million can be noisy and messy and complicated if the people are given their liberty. We must not allow anyone to have his own opinion. Each of us has deeply held beliefs but only the Malay Agenda is allowed to be championed. And when we go through tough times, when we make big decisions as a party, it necessarily suppress civil liberties and minority rights, stirs up non-Bumi’s dissatisfactions.

[Obama: That won't change after tonight, and it shouldn't. These arguments we have are a mark of our liberty. We can never forget that as we speak people in distant nations are risking their lives right now just for a chance to argue about the issues that matter, the chance to cast their ballots like we did today.]

NAJIB: That won't change after tonight, and it shouldn't. These privileges and special positions we have are a mark of our superiority as UMNO-putras. We can never forget that as we speak people in Kuala Lumpur are risking their lives right now just for a chance to argue about the issues that matter, the chance to assemble peacefully, and the chance to cast their ballots like we successfully suppressed today.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: But despite all our differences, most of us share certain hopes for America's future. We want our kids to grow up in a country where they have access to the best schools and the best teachers.]

NAJIB: But despite all our differences, most of us share certain hopes for UMNO's future. We want our kids to grow up or get educated in a country where they have access to the best schools and the best teachers, like America, Britain or Australia even though they are liberal, Christian democracies controlled by Jews.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: A country that lives up to its legacy as the global leader in technology and discovery and innovation, with all the good jobs and new businesses that follow.]

NAJIB: A country that lives up to its legacy as the global leader in systematic, institutionalized discrimination against non-Muslims and electoral fraud and manipulation, with all the lucrative government projects and contracts that follow.

[Obama: We want our children to live in an America that isn't burdened by debt, that isn't weakened by inequality, that isn't threatened by the destructive power of a warming planet.]

NAJIB: We want our children to live in a Malaysia that is burdened by ever increasing national debt and budget deficits so that one day we could join the ranks of advanced economies like Greece and Spain, that isn't weakened by equality, that isn't threatened by the destructive power of an environmental movement.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: We want to pass on a country that's safe and respected and admired around the world, a nation that is defended by the strongest military on earth and the best troops this - this world has ever known.

NAJIB: We want to pass on a country that's backward and a laughing stock and sniggered at around the world, a nation that is defended by the best submarines ON EARTH and the most secure fighter jet engines this world has ever known.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: But also a country that moves with confidence beyond this time of war, to shape a peace that is built on the promise of freedom and dignity for every human being. We believe in a generous America, in a compassionate America, in a tolerant America, open to the dreams of an immigrant's daughter who studies in our schools and pledges to our flag.]

NAJIB: But also a country that is built on the promise of freedom and dignity for every Bumiputra only. We believe in a generous government who gives out lucrative projects and contracts, in a compassionate UMNO towards its members, open to the dreams of a Pendatang's daughter so long as they and their posterity pledge to remain a second class citizen forever and ever and don’t demand any right or equal treatment with the Bumiputras, like what an ordinary human being anywhere else on earth would want to.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: To the furniture worker's child in North Carolina who wants to become a doctor or a scientist, an engineer or an entrepreneur, a diplomat or even a president - that's the future we hope for. That's the vision we share. That's where we need to go - forward.]

NAJIB: To the Indian estate worker's child in Perak who wants to become a doctor or a scientist, an engineer or an entrepreneur, a diplomat or even a president - that's the future we are scared of. That's the vision we must suppress. That's where we need to go – hold them back.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: Tonight you voted for action, not politics as usual.]

NAJIB: Tonight you voted for Pakatan Rakyat, not UMNO’s politics as usual. But we don’t give a fuck because our Phantom Voters have saved us once again.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: You elected us to focus on your jobs, not ours. And in the coming weeks and months, I am looking forward to reaching out and working with leaders of both parties to meet the challenges we can only solve together. Reducing our deficit. Reforming our tax code. Fixing our immigration system. Freeing ourselves from foreign oil. We've got more work to do.]

NAJIB: You elected us to focus on our jobs, not yours. And in the coming weeks and months, I am looking forward to reaching out and working with leaders of BN to meet the challenges by the Pakatan Rakyat we can only solve together. Increasing our deficit. Implementing Sales Tax. Reversing all the vote-buying political and economic liberalization reforms. Freeing ourselves from Chinese economic domination. Forever ban people from using Dataran Merdeka. We've got more work to do.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: This country has more wealth than any nation, but that's not what makes us rich. We have the most powerful military in history, but that's not what makes us strong. Our university, our culture are all the envy of the world, but that's not what keeps the world coming to our shores.]

NAJIB: This country has more wealth than any nation, but that's not what makes UMNO rich. We have the most useless military in history, but that's not what makes us weak. Our university, our culture are all the pariah of the world, but that's not what keeps the world coming to our shores to have a good laugh at our mess.

[Obama: What makes America exceptional are the bonds that hold together the most diverse nation on earth.]

NAJIB: What makes Malaysia exceptional are the special privileges for Bumiputras and Never Ending Policy that forever split the most diverse nation on earth.

[Obama: The belief that our destiny is shared; that this country only works when we accept certain obligations to one another and to future generations. The freedom which so many Americans have fought for and died for come with responsibilities as well as rights. And among those are love and charity and duty and patriotism. That's what makes America great.]

NAJIB: The belief that our Bumiputra destiny is shared among Bumiputras alone; that this country only works when non-Bumis accept certain obligations to Bumiputras and to future generations of Bumiputras. The freedom which so many non-Bumis have fought for and died for come with responsibilities towards Bumiputras as well as necessary and permanent racial and religious discrimnation. And among those are Ketuanan Melayu and and Islamic supremacy and corruption and totalitarianism. That's what makes Malay Agenda great.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: I am hopeful tonight because I've seen the spirit at work in America… I've seen it in the soldiers who reenlist after losing a limb and in those SEALs who charged up the stairs into darkness and danger because they knew there was a buddy behind them watching their back.]

NAJIB: I am hopeful tonight because I've seen the spirit at work in Malaysia… I've seen it in the non-Bumi soldiers who reenlist after being heavily discriminated against and despised at and called a Pendatang by UMNO, including by Zahid Hamidi, and in those patriotic non-Malay soldiers who charged up the stairs into darkness and danger because they knew there was a whole life of never-ending and complete discrimination and hatred by their own government behind them waiting for them if and when they do come back alive after fighting for Malaysia.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting.]

NAJIB: I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. That is what I want the non-Bumis to believe, forever and ever. So that they will vote for BN elections after elections, keep hoping that each time we change Prime Minister they will get a better treatment, despite all the evidence to the contrary as proven by the 1999 election, when they saved Mahathir’s sorry arse (but nothing improved), and the 2004 election, when they helped give Abdullah 90% of the seats in Parliament (but also nothing improved). We will keep promising them so that they will keep hoping and hoping for the day that will never come. But if they cannot be persuaded to hope again, we can always remind them of May 13and threaten instability and chaos.

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: America, I believe we can build on the progress we've made and continue to fight for new jobs and new opportunity and new security for the middle class. I believe we can keep the promise of our founders, the idea that if you're willing to work hard, it doesn't matter who you are or where you come from or what you look like or where you love. It doesn't matter whether you're black or white or Hispanic or Asian or Native American or young or old or rich or poor, able, disabled, gay or straight, you can make it here in America if you're willing to try.]

NAJIB: America, I believe we can build on the progress we've made and continue to fight for new jobs and new opportunity and new security for the Bumiputras only. I believe we can keep the promise of our predecessors, the idea that if you're willing to work hard, it doesn't matter who you are or where you come from or what you look like or where you love so long as you are a Muslim. It doesn't matter whether you're yellow or brown or white or Burmese or Indon or Filipino or Arab or Pakistani or young or old or rich or quite rich, stupid or dumb, straight or straight, you can make it here in Malaysia so long as you look like a Malay or Arab and you're a true Bumiputra (and not the copycats called "Natives").

(APPLAUSE)

[Obama: Thank you, America. God bless you. God bless these United States.]

NAJIB: Thank you, Malaysia. God bless you. God bless these UMNO-putras.

(APPLAUSE)

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Bawang note: Political analysts predict that with the combination of electoral fraud and stupid and naive voters who keep hoping that Lucifer will be transformed into a Saint, UMNO will rule Malaysia for at least another 100 years. We congratulate Malaysians for getting what they deserve.

Defections - Get Used to It

William Gladstone (1809 – 1898), four times British Prime Minister, was defeated by no-confidence votes but went on to become one of the greatest Prime Ministers in the UK's history.

(Revised on 21 Sept 2008)

1. We cannot deny that defection – from either side – is against the people’s mandate. It is the case that in this country, the ballots are deemed as the people’s last words, and that the rule of the game is, whoever commands the majority support of the Parliament is entitled to rule.

2. But will ‘chaos’ happen to our system of democracy if the government of the day could be toppled by the defections of MPs? For his attempt to topple the BN government by mass defections, the Prime Minister has even called Anwar Ibrahim a "threat to the economy and national security".

3. But then this has happened in many democratic countries governed by coalition governments such as Australia, Canada, Italy, Israel, India, Japan, etc – mature and developing democracies alike. Many Prime Ministers have been brought down by votes of no confidence – just read this list. Most of these democracies not only did not collapse, but continue to prosper to this day.

Prime Ministers defeated by votes of no confidence

Australia
* James Scullin (1931)
* Arthur Fadden (1941)
* Malcolm Fraser (1975)

Canada
* Arthur Meighen (1926)
* John George Diefenbaker (1963)
* Pierre Elliott Trudeau (1974)
* Joe Clark (1979)
* Paul Martin (2005)

Denmark
* Knud Kristensen (1947)

France
* Georges Pompidou (1962)

Germany
* Helmut Schmidt (1982)

India
* Vishwanath Pratap Singh (1990)
* H D Deve Gowda (1997)
* Atal Bihari Vajpayee (1999)

Israel
* Yitzhak Shamir (1990)

Italy
* Benito Mussolini (1943)
* Amintore Fanfani (1954)
* Romano Prodi 1st (1998)
* Romano Prodi 2nd (2008)

Japan
* Katsura Taro (1913)
* Shigeru Yoshida 2nd (1948)
* Shigeru Yoshida 4th (1953)
* Masayoshi Ohira (1980)
* Kiichi Miyazawa (1993)

The Netherlands
* Joseph Maria Laurens Theo Cals (1966)
* Rudolphus Franciscus Marie Lubbers (1989)

New Zealand
* Thomas MacKenzie (1912)

Norway
* Christopher Hornsrud (1928)
* Einar Gerhardsen (1963)
* John Lyng (1963)

Papua New Guinea
* Michael Somare (1980)
* Paias Wingti (1988)

Solomon Islands
* Francis Billy Hilly (1994)
* Manasseh Sogavare (2007)

Tuvalu
* Bikenibeu Paeniu (1999)
* Faimalaga Luka (2001)
* Saufatu Sopoanga (2004)

Ukraine
* Viktor Yushchenko (2001)
* Viktor Yanukovych (2004)

United Kingdom
* Lord North (1782)—This is considered to be the first motion of no confidence in history
* John Russell, 1st Earl Russell (1866)
* Benjamin Disraeli (1868)
* William Gladstone (1885)
* Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury (1886)
* William Gladstone (1886)
* Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury (1892)
* Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery (1895)
* Stanley Baldwin (January 1924)
* Ramsay MacDonald (October 1924)
* James Callaghan (1979)

4. Whenever the members of your party/coalition change ship, the government is brought down with it. So I’ve got news for you, Malaysia: It happens all the time. This is what Wikipedia says (you only need common sense to agree):

“The cases in which a motion of no confidence have passed are generally those in which the government party has a slim majority which is eliminated by either by-elections or defections. Motions of No Confidence are far more common in multi-party systems in which a minority party must form coalition government. This can result in the situation in which there are many short-lived governments because the party structure allows small parties to break a government without means to create a government.”

5. The political system might be a little more 'stable' if we have a Presidential system of government, eg. in the USA, France, South Korea, Taiwan. Unlike a Westminster style Parliamentary Democracy like ours, the Executive branch of the government in a Presidential system is not exposed to the same risk of change or removal. Once elected, the President is there for 4/5/6 years whether the Parliament/Legislature have confidence in him or not. So, you’ll know for certain who you have to deal with for a fixed period of time. In that respect, there is certainty in the political system. (Yes, you can still try to impeach the President, but it is usually very difficult and therefore very rare.)

6. On the other hand, political deadlocks are perhaps even more common in a Presidential system because it is very common to have one party controlling the Legislature and another party controlling the Presidency, kind of like what is happening now in the USA (President = Republican, Congress = Democrats) and Taiwan during President Chen (President = Democratic Progressive Party, Parliament = Nationalist Party). The Legislature may shoot down the President’s policies, and the President may veto the laws passed by the Legislature. But then the USA has survived countless such deadlocks – and prospered – for more than 200 years. Taiwan - after 2 democratic and peaceful regime changes in the past 10 years - is now proudly among the most stable democracies in Asia.

7. However, it is unlikely that Malaysia will switch to a Presidential system because we love our Monarchy, we would not want to replace it with a President. (Unless we choose to have a President who is still subordinate to the Agong, but then if the Agong has power to remove the President it would defeat the purpose of electing the President in the first place.)


Anti-Hopping Law – Unworkable

8. Can the problem of ‘political instability’ due to party-hopping be solved by an anti-hopping law? The fact that most of the other Westminster style democracies – mature and developed – in the world DO NOT have such prohibition of party-hopping seems to make the answer quite obvious.

9. But then we are Malaysia, and Malaysia is always Boleh, so maybe we should be the first to have it? Well, but how is that going to work in practice? Let's work this out.

10. The starting point we all accept is that our MPs are not mere rubber-stamps. (Softly: I know the BN MPs are, but psshhhh… in theory they are not supposed to be…) They are supposed to exercise independent judgments on whether to vote for or against any proposal presented to the Parliament, so it is always open for them - BN and Opposition alike – to vote for or against the government of the day.

11. So, it is always possible for the MP from the governing BN coalition to vote against the government’s decision to, say, join the USA in invading Iraq. This was what many British MPs from the ruling Labour Party have done, against their then leader Tony Blair. It is their right, as people’s representatives elected by their constituencies.

12. But if we have an anti-hopping law in place, does it mean that the MP from a ruling party could no longer vote against his own governing party? You might say, voting for one or two resolutions is ok, but not too many. But then how many nay-votes is too many? If a BN MP keeps voting against the BN and keeps voting in favour of proposals put up by the Opposition, is he still a member of BN, even though he is not allowed to jump ship and call himself an Opposition MP (because the anti-hopping law does not allow that)?

13. Ok, maybe we can accept him voting with the Opposition MP but he just cannot be allowed to cast a vote of no-confidence against the Prime Minister, leader of his own coalition. But if that is the case, is it still meaningful if, even though the Prime Minister cannot be defeated by no-confidence votes from his own party’s MPs, but his own MPs always vote against him in all other resolutions? How can he still govern if they keep rejecting his policies in Parliament?

14. The other alternative is of course to make it mandatory for the MPs elected under a particular party/coalition to vote according to party line, regardless of his own opinions. Therefore, let’s abolish paragraph 10 above, so the government will always be 'stable'.

15. But in that case, we would no longer have a Parliamentary Democracy – we have a de facto Presidential system which is even more powerful than the real Presidential system because we now have 2 branches cemented into 1: the Executive branch is fully controlling and controlled by the majority of the Legislative branch. Say goodbye to checks and balances and welcome Executive Tyranny – we might as well abolish the Parliament because whoever (both from BN and Opposition) is not appointed a member of the Cabinet (ie. the Executive branch) is basically useless, because they can never vote ‘no’ to any proposal by the Executive branch anyway.

16. The right of an MP to exercise his own judgment (paragraph 10 above) is so crucial and fundamental to any Parliamentary Democracy. If he is not able to vote freely, he would not be able to ‘jaga’ the Executive for the people, to vote against and to vote out the corrupt and incompetent government ministers (which is sadly the situation in the current BN-dominated Parliament). These MPs would have no reason to be elected in the first place.

17. So, to sum up, the anti-hopping law is fundamentally unsustainable because it seeks to deny the most fundamental feature of a Parliamentary Democracy – the freedom of each and every MP to vote to support any resolution, whether it is from the ruling party or the opposition.


Recall, perhaps?

18. But does it mean that the people should be left disappointed when their elected MP turns into a frog? Well, technically yes, and that is why it is so important for the voters to vote for the candidate, not the party. Vote for someone you can trust, whose judgment is sound and who is wise – no matter which party he is with. (Theoretically, don't forget that he should be allowed to jump ship after he was elected as a candidate of his party because his party might turn into a 'bad' party AFTER being elected to govern and half-way into their 5 year term.) That was the original intention of our Parliamentary system, anyway.

19. But I think instead of having anti-hopping law, we should have a ‘recall law’ where the voters in a constituency are allowed to call for a ‘referendum’ on the MP if the MP has done something against the wishes of his constituents who elected him, such as if he has changed party.

20. Voters should be allowed to have another election in their constituency to confirm whether that MP should continue to represent them in the Parliament if, say, 25% of the registered voters in that constituency petition to do so, after the general election but before the 5 year term is up. It would be like a by-election we now have.

21. That way, the MP would be forced to constantly explain his (in)actions in the Parliament to his constituents, making the system much more accountable.


Well, we must Get Used to it

22. So here we are, a Westminster style Constitutional Monarchy and Parliamentary Democracy. The Prime Minister can only be the Prime Minister if he is supported by a majority of MPs. If not, he has to step down immediately – simple as that. And MPs are allowed to change their allegiance all the time. In theory it is less 'stable', but more accountable because whenever the government does something incredibly stupid/unpopular (such as invading Iraq, 'main-main' with ISA arrests or the Prime Minister being struck by mad cow disease), the MPs should be able to bring the government down IMMEDIATELY, so that the government will be constantly accountable to the people.

23. Toppling the ruling party by defection is a fact of life in such a system, DUH!! Indeed, it SHOULD BE VERY COMMON, because it is only through this CONSTANT THREAT of being brought down that the Parliament is able to keep the government CONSTANTLY accountable and don't do anything stupid or crazy. It is the only effective weapon to check Executive tyranny. The only thing is that we have never come to this stage before in our history, so it’s completely new to us, thanks to BN’s perpetual insult on the people’s intelligence for the past 51 years and assuming that we are too stupid to handle Democracy.

24. But then I suspect that given the very slim majority (less than 5 MPs) that Anwar claims to currently have over BN in the Parliament, it is quite likely that Anwar’s “new government” (if he succeeds) could also be easily destabilised in the future by threats of MPs crossing-‘back’ (watch out for PAS).

25. If the current BN could be so easily threatened with crossing-overs even though they are only 8 MPs short of a 2/3 majority (while PR is a whopping 30 MPs short of a simple majority), I wonder how many governments in the future would be ‘stable’ enough.

26. If PR can really survive into the future and a 2-party system really takes root in Malaysia (which is a good thing for our Democracy), Malaysians must brace ourselves for a more ‘unstable’ and ‘fluid’ political system in the future. The only alternative is to back-paddle and retard the growth and maturity of our Democracy, back to the dark old days of a comprehensive domination by a single coalition (or to turn into a Presidential system – paragraph 5, 6, 7 above, which is unlikely).

27. Therefore, let’s get used to this ‘instability’, a hallmark of genuine Democracy. If so many other democracies could do it, so could we. Both sides of the political divide – and the important institutions of the country such as the Monarchy and the armed forces – should do the country a great service by accepting whatever decision is made by our elected MPs. There should be nothing to panic about if there is going to be a change in government. (Only those who are afraid of losing power should panic.) Once we manage to ride through this ‘growing pain’ of regime change (or failure to change) for the first time with calm and composure, we – and foreign investors – would have nothing to fear EVERY SINGLE time we have a general election. If we can live through this sort of 'political turmoils' unscathed, it would bear testimony to the maturity and strength of our democracy.

28. So welcome, Malaysia, to genuine Democracy. Enjoy the ride - and there is no need to 'panic'!



(from now on, I'll write like my idol Che Det - numbering my paragraphs. And it makes me feel quite 'Che Det', to be honest... hehe)

Dalai Lama wants Islamic states to follow Tibet

Juslo's Bawang

(Lhasa, Tibet, 31 June 2008) TIBET wants the Islamic states to emulate its Buddhist City concept where administration is based on religious tenets while promoting goodwill among non-Buddhists. His Holiness is expected to make the same call to the Christian, Jewish, Hindu and other pagan states in the coming weeks, according to his press secretary.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet said that non-Buddhists should not be fearful of the Buddhist concept as it generated a harmonious lifestyle and curbed vice and crime.

“We want the Islamic states to copy Tibet’s form of governance and our concept of Buddhist cities.

“Buddhism stands for the ultimate good so we don’t see any wrong in others copying what we do,” he said after launching the pioneer USD100mil Buddhist township in Chamdo.

“If the Buddhist City concept promotes positive and healthy values, I suppose even the non-Buddhist would accept it. If they do not want to, then there is nothing we can do but people usually support good things,” he said.

The township project, billed as the gateway to Lhasa, would be carried out in four phases until 2014. It would represent every aspect of Buddhist living and religious requirement.

The city would have a state-of-the-art temple, a budget hotel with Buddhist architecture, apartment blocks, recreational grounds, shop houses and a research centre.

As at press time, it is understood that in response to the Dalai Lama's call, in the coming weeks,

(1) Nik Aziz, Malaysia's Islamic spiritual leader, would be making the same call to the Buddhists to embrace the 'Islamic City' concept;

(2) the Sheikh Al-Azhar, or the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar University, Egypt, would be making the same call to the Christians to embrace the 'Islamic City' concept;

(3) the Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader of Shia Iran, would be making the same call to the Sunni Muslims to embrace the 'Shia City' concept;

(4) the Pope would be making the same call to the Muslims to embrace the 'Catholic City' concept;

(5) the leader of the Mormon Church would be making the same call to the Catholics to embrace the 'Mormon City' concept;

(6) the leader of the Church of Scientology would be making the same call to the Mormons to embrace the 'Scientology City' concept;

(7) the Reverend Jerry Falwell (August 11, 1933 – May 15, 2007) an American evangelical Christian pastor and televangelist, would be rising from the dead to make the same call to the Muslims to embrace the 'Christian City' concept;

(8) Adolf Hitler, still the spiritual leader of the world's Nazism, would also be rising from the dead to make the same call to the Jews to embrace the 'Nazi City' concept;

(9) Mao Tze-Dong and Joseph Stalin would also be rising from the dead together to make the same call jointly to the Capitalists of the world to embrace the 'Communist City' concept;

(10) the leader of the World Vegetarian Network would also be making the same call to all the meat-eating people of the world to embrace the 'Vega City' concept;

(11) the President of the Alcoholics Anonymous Worldwide would also be making the same call to all the healthy people of the world to embrace the 'Booze City' concept; and

(12) the Chairman of the Global Stamp Collectors Alliance would also be making the same call to all other people who actually have a life to embrace the 'Stamp City' concept.

More religious, political, ideological, leisure and what-not organizations of the world are expected to make the same call to the rest of the world, in the coming weeks and months. The world's media would face a chaotic scheduling problem as they try to decide which 'Embrace City' press conference, counter-press conference, counter-counter-press conference and re-counter-counter-counter-press conference to cover. The media are worried that if they leave out any such press conference uncovered, they would be accused of bias, discrimination, racism, and anti-whatever-ism.

The Chief Executive Officer of CNN has made his own call to the world leaders to consider postponing "making 'Embrace City' calls" to allow an orderly coverage by the world's media.

Meanwhile, the world's natural disasters, hunger, diseases, corruption and poverty problems go unreported, as the mass media are busy convering competing 'Embrace City' calls by the various organizations.

Editorial notes: “Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home.” -- Arsene Wenger, on Sir Alex Ferguson. This is very true when applied to the Dalai Lama's latest statement above.

We do wish that the Dalai Lama learn to be less divisive, chauvinistic, self-centered, and (to be honest) fascist. Imagine if EVERY RELIGION/ CREED says that THEIR belief system is the best, and should be followed, we'll have chaos. After all, who the f**k among us could tell for sure that our way is definitely THE right way and THE best way, and that others must follow? Only God knows that, not those who play-God.

What makes the Dalai Lama think that other religions, like ISLAM, does not "generate a harmonious lifestyle and curbed vice and crime"??? Maybe they would do better, MUCH MUCH BETTER, than the Dalai Lama's own religion in achieving those goals?? If that is the case, would the Dalai Lama's own followers happily accept living in an Islamic City, since Islam "stands for the ultimate good so we don’t see any wrong in others copying what we do"???

How much does the Dalai Lama actually know about other religious beliefs anyway, to give him the moral authority or enough knowledge as a basis to make that kind of claim?? Surely if you don't know anything about other beliefs, logically you would not know whether others are more inferior, or better, than your own, right??

Just like it is the Dalai Lama's f**king annoying habit of constantly criticizing those who speak up against his Buddhist ideology as "ignorant about Buddhism and therefore have no right to talk about Buddhism", the Dalai Lama should heed his own adivce and learn how to SHUT THE F**K UP.

And if you want to force YOUR religious beliefs down the throats of others, we really cannot see how you have the AUDACITY to ask people who speak up against your ideas to SHUT UP -- man, you got to expect some reactions when you are spitting at others' beliefs, right?!???!!

We at JB really cannot understand why is it that the followers of the Dalai Lama cannot f**king realize that to keep championing his own religious beliefs AS THE BEST that should be followed by all is, AT THE SAME TIME, DENIGRATING others' beliefs as INFERIOR??? We at JB really cannot see how this is conducive to world peace.

Please lah, grow up, focus on how to make everybody feel equal and at ease with each other, so we can unite as a poeple and face the bigger challenges from outside -- especially to defeat our COMMON ENEMIES. Instead of calling it the 'Buddhist City', why not call it the Peace City, so that EVERYBODY, regardless of religious background, can relate to and call his/her own??

We at JB seriously urge the Dalai Lama to stop thinking that he and the followers of his religion is like Manchester United, while the rest of us are just his INFERIOR competitors in a competitive league who are destined for hell. We are all in the same team, for f**k's sake, and we need to defeat our COMMON ENEMIES, so stop annoying others please!!!

Lina Joy - Malaysian Islamists Won the Battle But Losing the War?

As I said, the reason why I blog is to look for complications in things. In this post, I'm trying to do that with regard to the Lina Joy case.

While most people take the view that the majority's judgment in Lina Joy is bad for civil liberties in this country, I think the Federal Court has just given the 'liberals' more ammunition to fight the next battle. (Assuming My Understanding of the Judgment is Correct...)

You have read the majority’s judgment?
Do you notice what has been said and what has not?

Could you see what has been said very loudly (but less significant) and what has been whispered quietly and in passing (but highly significant)?

The Chief Justice (in the majority) says:

"(13) ABIM, Muslim Lawyers Association and the Malaysian Syarie Lawyers Association, also as watching brief, have in turn gave their respective opinions which are briefly as follows:

(a) Article 11 of the Federal Constitution used the words ‘profess and practice’. Hence, the matter of leaving Islam should follow the related laws. A person could leave {26} Islam but has to follow its procedures...

(14) Regarding the views at paragraphs (12) and (13) above I agree with the views at paragraph (13).”

1, The Federal Court agreed that in Malaysia, a person could legally (not talking about theologically or spiritually) leave Islam, by virtue of the guarantee in Article 11.

On the other hand, the Court never said that Muslims do not have the freedom to apostate. In particular, the Federal Court did not say that because of Article 121(1A), Article 11 has been completely denied to the Muslims.

In this case, the Court only decided on which is the appropriate court (which has jurisdiction) to do this, that’s all. No doubt has been cast over Muslims’ Article 11 freedom at all.

In other words, the Federal Court has confirmed that Muslims could go to that destination (apostasy) (because of Article 11); it’s just that for now, the court has prescribed a particular mode of transportation (because of Article 121(1A)).

So, when it comes to Muslims, Article 121(1A) has only burdened Article 11, but has not eliminated it.

And that’s great news for Muslims who want their religious freedom, don't you think?

(Even though you can't just take the shortcut of deleting the IC...)

This point (which I think is significant) seems to have been missed by all newspaper reports.

The Islamists who argue that there is absolutely no freedom to leave Islam actually did not ‘win’ in this case, because the Chief Justice of the Federal Court has just confirmed that you CAN ACTUALLY APOSTATE (well, at least in theory). ABIM has been opposing Lina Joy’s appeal by arguing that Muslims should not be given the right to leave Islam, but the Chief Justice has just disagreed with that view.

2, The Federal Court did not say what and where are the appropriate ‘laws and procedures’ for leaving Islam, neither did they point to any which currently exists in Malaysia. But based on what they have said, these must exist, because otherwise, what they have said would be a complete nonsense or empty talk – like asking an alcohol drinker to buy wine from the mosque. Of course the highest court in the land would not pronounce nonsense or hot air - they are, in fact, telling us what is the highest law in the land.

It seems that all they have suggested was that such matters are to be dealt with by the Syariah Court, which means that if there is no such ‘laws and procedures’ in the Syariah Court, then some must be created to allow the leaving to happen. But if the Syariah law-makers refuse to do that, then of course the Syariah Court would no longer be the appropriate place to deal with apostasy because the rationale for going to the Syariah Court in the first place is the availability of such ‘laws and procedures’.

However, if after confirming that the Syariah Court lacks those ‘laws and procedures’, the Federal Court still insists that the apostate must go there, the Federal Court would be mocking Article 11 of the Federal Constitution – and the very basis of its own existence. So, if the Syariah Court does not have or exercise them, then the civil court would have to become the appropriate, default place to deal with the matter.

After all, I'm sure the Federal Court still believes that, Islamic law or otherwise, when there is a right (to leave Islam... according to the proper laws and procedures of course), there must be a remedy.

3, If any such ‘laws and procedures’ created is so burdensome that it could practically prevent a Muslim’s leaving of Islam and rendering the freedom to leave illusory or just a joke, then those ‘laws and procedures’ must be nullified for contravening the Federal Constitution, i.e. unconstitutional.

4, And further, if there is any ‘laws and procedures’ which actually penalize the exercise of the freedom to leave Islam, then they must all the more be nullified as unconstitutional.

Such as these:

SYARIAH OFFENCES ENACTMENT (MELAKA STATE) 19916/1991

PART IV: OTHER OFFENCES

Section 66 - Trying of Apostasy.

(1) Whenever a Muslim deliberately, by conduct or word or whatever other way, admit to want to leave Islam or declares himself to be non-Muslim, then the [Syariah] Court shall, if satisfied that that person has done something which could be interpreted as has tried to change iktikad (faith) and belief in Islam whether it is by his own admission or conduct, make order so that the person is detained in Pusat Bimbingan Islam (Islamic Guidance/Rehabilitation Center) for a period not more than 6 months for the purpose of education and such person be requested to repent in accordance with Hukum Syarak.

(2) If any person who has been ordered so that is detained under subsection (1) -

(a) repents immediately, the [Syariah] Court shall, after confirming his repent, free that person; or

(b) if that person at any time during detention has repented, the Observing Officer shall report the matter to the [Syariah] Court and the Court shall call that person and after confirming his repent, shall make an order to free him.

(3) The Observing Officer shall send a progress report about that person being detained to the Syariah Court every week.

(4) The Islamic Guidance/Rehabilitation Center shall be gazetted as a detention centre.

And these:

SYARIAH CRIMES ENACTMENT (PERAK STATE) 19923/1992

PART IV: OFFENCES RELATING TO THE HONOUR OF THE RELIGION AND ITS INSTITUTIONS

Section 13 - Act or word of Apostasy.

A Muslim who deliberately, whether by conduct or word or whatever other way, admits wants to leave Islam or declares himself as a non-Muslim is committing an offence offending Islam and shall, when found guilty, be given punishment of fine not more than RM3,000.00 or jail for for a period not more than 2 years or both together.

[### Perak has no qualm about calling it jail instead of 'education'. The frankness is commendable! ###]

And also these:

Takfir.

(1) Depends on subsection (2), any person who says or indicate by words, whether verbal or written, or by sign or picture, or by any act, activity or conduct, or by organizing, promoting or create any activity or otherwise by any way, that any person professing Islam or people who are categorized in any group, entity or description of people who profess Islam-

(a) is a kafir/unbeliever;

(b) no longer profess Islam;

(c) should not be accepted, or could not be accepted, as professing Islam; or

(d) do not believe, follow, profess or group within, Islam,
is committing an offence and when found guilty can be fined not more than RM5,000.00 or jailed for a period not more than 3 years or both together.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to -

(a) any which is done by any [Syariah?] Court or religious authority created, formed or appointed or under any written law and is given power to make or issue any decision regarding any matter related to Islam; and

(b) any which is done by any person according to or following any decision made or issued by the [Syariah?] Court or any such authority, whether the decision is written or if written, whether it is published in the Gazette.

*** Found, in similar wordings, in at least:

ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH (TAKZIR) (TERENGGANU) 20017/2001, BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN 'AQIDAH, Seksyen 38

ENAKMEN JENAYAH SYARIAH (SELANGOR) 19959/1995, BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN YANG BERHUBUNGAN DENGAN 'AQIDAH, Seksyen 6

JOHOR ENAKMEN KESALAHAN JENAYAH SYARIAH 19974/1997, BAHAGIAN V KESALAHAN PELBAGAI, Seksyen 31

KEDAH ENAKMEN KANUN JENAYAH SYARIAH 19889/1988, BAHAGIAN II KESALAHAN-KESALAHAN, Seksyen 24

[### Note that these are not the so-called 'laws and procedures' mentioned by the Chief Justice because just because you have been fined, jailed and 'educated' under these criminal provisions does not mean that the Syariah Court will therefore give you an apostasy order. (But I don't know whether they'll give you a 'Certificate of Graduation from the Guidance Course', though. ###]

Because all these laws criminalizing the word or act of apostasy would be directly in conflict with Muslims' freedom of religion under Article 11, which the Federal Court has just confirmed that Muslims have.

Is there a 'Next' Battle?

So, it seems that this is not the end of the road yet -- for both sides. The true Battle Royale would come when a Muslim (Lina Joy or someone else):

- follows the advice of the Federal Court to go through the 'laws and procedures' of the Syariah Court and go to apply for an apostasy order,

- but got arrested the moment she makes the application, under 1 of the laws above,

- found guilty of committing an offence (of claiming apostasy) and punishment given out,

- appeals to the whatever appeal court they have in the Syariah system but is rejected,

- THEN apply to the civil court to declare that her punishment is unconstitutional because it violates her, Muslim's, freedom of religion under Article 11, and want the civil court to nullify all these criminal provisions.

The Federal Court would then have to consider doing the 'unthinkable' -

a, either to nullify all those laws as unconstitutional for infringing on that Muslim's Article 11 freedom of religion which she no doubt has, albeit 'burdened'; or

b, to complete their abdication of their constitutional duty by deciding:

"Although Muslims no doubt have the freedom of religion, (WE CONFIRM ONCE AGAIN, don't worry!), but it is still up to the Syariah Court to interpret what is the actual meaning and width of Muslims' 'freedom' or civil liberties (in Arabic if they so wish), and for them to decide whether any particular syariah law actually infringes those freedoms and civil liberties or not (and therefore also whether that law is unconstitutional).

The Syariah Court has complete jurisdiction (clearly implied!) with regard to Muslims, including their constitutional freedom and liberties. So, please go back there, again."

Appellant: "But I have followed your previous advice to stay the course, follow through all the laws and procedures, and they still put me in a deadend (after jailing me)!"

Federal Court: "Errr... hhmm... Then, we guess you just have to wait for the Wahhabists to take over the Parliament and abolish Article 11... sorry."

For the Sake of the Nation's Long Term Unity and Harmony

But is the next battle going to help national unity? Of course not, especially if it has to go through the courts again.

Therefore, I believe that the task of giving a way out - in the Syariah Court or otherwise - to the apostates can no longer be avoided. Although it could be more tempting to just amend the Federal Constitution to deny Article 11 to the Muslims, that is only going to suppress, not resolve, the minority's grievances, and is going to do a permanent, possibly irreparable damage to national unity in the long term.

Some people have suggested making clear rules and procedures to make apostasy possible but with strict, discouraging (but not penalizing) quid pro quo, such as requiring the apostate to promise not to disparage Islam after leaving, to pay hefty 'compensation taxes' to the Muslim community as the payback for having enjoyed the benefits and privileges which come with the position of being a bumiputra, and to make that option available to only those who are of a mature enough age, say 21, (therefore not easily swayed by the 'enemies of Islam').

I think that is the only way out - striking a balance between allowing individual freedom of conscience (and to avoid the inhumanity of mentally and spiritually torturing those who no longer has a heart for Islam), while not disrupting the choice of the pious Muslim majority to live the comprehensive Muslim lifestyle they crave.

But above all, the Muslim elites should study the real reason why Musims want to leave the Malaysian 'legal' Islam in the first place (rather than fooling themselves with the imaginary, distracting, blame-it-on-others and self-deceiving/deluding reasons like 'exposure to the poison of Christian missionary, American culture and internet' blah blah blah).

Doing away with discriminatory laws such as 'easy' polygamy, and anti-choice laws such as regulating women's dress and compelling marital conversion would perhaps have pre-empted many from thinking about converting out of Islam.

For a start, we would probably never hear about Lina Joy and she would have happily married her Christian boyfriend and live happily and quietly together as wife and husband -- Muslim and Christian.

Now, wouldn't God have liked and praised that ending?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You should also read 'Lina Joy, The Decision (Counsel’s Explanation)' by The Idiot Behind the Iron Mask, who has tried to give the explaination by apparently some of the lawyers involved in the case for some of the concerns I happen to have about going to the Syariah Court. This is my comments (in black) posted there (with some changes):

“Whether a person such as Lina will succeed or not in the Syariah court will depend on the grounds that she gives to the Court i.e. she will have to state why she is leaving the religion… the Court [can] go through the body of Muslim jurisprudence in order resolve her problem.”

Q: what are the grounds normally acceptable?

Q: would the counsel agree that it would make people have more confidence in the syariah system’s transparency and accountability if the requirements for leaving islam are clearly written down for all to know - since it is such a sensitive issue.

from the other side of the divide, it does look like apostates are being sent to a ‘black hole’ or sent on a wild goose chase -- while there r MANY serious offences CLEARLY written down to punish whoever claims to b an apostate, on 1 hand, NONE of the ‘requirements’ and ‘conditions’ for apostasy application is written down.

those who r used to the civil court common law system knows that the judges write down the reasons for their decisions, and the confidence is boosted by the expectation that like cases would b treated alike (they call it ‘binding precedent’?), therefore nobody could accuse the civil court system of favouritism against any one party.

but syariah court doesn’t seem to inspire that kind of confidence.

i’m NOT trying to disparage the syariah court system, but only hope that muslims understand why going to
syariah court is such a non-starter for most non-muslims.

“In the state of Negeri Sembilan, there are special provisions for Muslims to leave Islam.”

which means the rest of the states/territories DON’T have. why?

wouldn’t it make things look less ’suspicious’ to the non-muslims if they r written down?

“The Court may impose counseling on the would-be apostate for a certain period until the Court is able to satisfy itself that there is no hope for the applicant to return to Islam.”

Q: is there any safeguard in place to prevent any ill-treatment? i’ve heard of people being torturned (physically n mentally - brainwashed is the minimum) during the ‘counselling period’.

(which is another reason that scares apostates away, i guess.)

“Once the court declares that she is an apostate, she cannot be charged for any offence which other Muslims are subject to. If she is charged, she can raise her defence under Article 11 (1) of the Constitution.”

Q: ok, is this only in N. S., or all states?

“Negeri Sembilan… Of the 89 applications made between 1984 and 2003, 16 applications were allowed, 29 applications were dismissed and 39 postponed. In 2005, there were 5 successful applications; in 2006 (until August) there were 3 successful applications…”

Q: i think it’s reasonable to say that getting the order is still much less likely than not?

(that’s why, i feel that clear rules and procedures should b written down.)

“The application by a person to leave Islam is a civil suit/ proceeding and not a criminal proceeding. No one will be charged under Islamic criminal law for making such an application. Federal Court judge Justice Malanjun (a Kadazan Christian from Sabah) is misled for saying in the Lina Joy case that a person will incriminate himself and can be charged for a criminal offence if he applies to leave Islam in a Syariah court.”

Q: true, the application might b a civil application, but could the authorities LATER/AT THE SAME TIME/BEFORE YOUR APPLICATION IS DECIDED, charge u with a criminal offence in a PARALLEL, SEPARATE criminal proceedings, for MAKING the application (which seems to be caught by the wording of those criminal provisions)?

Is there any assurance (explicitly written) that they would not?

Q: any express provisions/syariah principles to guarantee that she wouldn’t b charged? for a start, those criminal provisions DO NOT give an EXCEPTION to that kind of application. their wordings r very wide - ‘by word, conduct, … or by any manner at all’ surely, it’s reasonable for most people (including Justice Malanjun) to make that conclusion.

(some muslims like to say, “that’s why we keep saying non-muslims should not interfere with syariah matters BCOS THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND!!”

but they never bother to EXPLAIN and PERSUADE by telling us, unambiguously, what is REALLY the fact. they just stop there, n broke off the conversation. frankly, asking someone to ’stop asking’ in the middle of a conversation/discussion is quite rude. at the very least, it shows that they r not interested in engaging others.)

many non-muslims, myself included, ARE WILLING to listen n understand what the other side is thinking. if we don’t understand, PLEASE EXPLAIN and point to CLEAR examples. then, we’ll b persuaded.

maybe not all of us, but many would.

“As to the fact that some states have enacted Islamic laws making apostasy a crime, these laws are seldom enforced.”

Q: i won’t dispute that these laws r seldom enforced. but the fact is, they r THERE. from the other side, it does seem like the clerics r just WAITING for the time to ’strike’ (to snatch your wife & children from your home, etc). i’m not saying that this perception is correct, but there r a lot of things MUSLIMS could do to achieve greater understanding.

if the laws r not frequently enforced, that still does not answer the fact that the syariah system IS TRYING TO SCARE apostates. now, in that situation, how can u expect the apostates to willingly go to the syariah court? again, i’m not criticizing u on this, but just hope u’ll see things from the other side’s perspective.

I'll update if there's any reply by him.